032 Ingrid Faro on the Hidden Pillars Of Salvation History

What if the Bible’s turning points hinge on women we were taught to ignore? We sit down with Dr. Ingrid Faro to follow a bright thread through Scripture—Eve’s resilient hope, Rahab’s audacious confession, Tamar’s righteous risk, Hannah’s prayerful courage, Bathsheba’s hard-won voice, and Jehosheba’s daring rescue—that together advances the story of salvation. Far from side characters, these women act as God’s agents at moments when everything could collapse.

We begin with Ingrid’s journey from deep personal trauma to Old Testament scholarship, and how study in Hebrew and archaeology opened space for healing. Then we reframe Genesis 1–2 as the bedrock for human dignity and shared vocation: image-bearers called to rule together, with the woman named ezer, a strong ally, and tsela, the sacred “side” that holds up the dwelling of God. This lens clarifies the rest of Scripture—if a side is missing, the structure fails—and challenges church cultures that sideline women and dim their witness.

We also set Bathsheba’s story straight by following the verbs of power—who sees, sends, and takes—and by reading the narrative through trauma-aware eyes. David’s sin is named; Bathsheba is never blamed. From there, we trace how women serve as a barometer of communal health: when they’re honored and heard, families and nations thrive; when they’re silenced or harmed, collapse follows. Along the way, Ingrid offers practical counsel for those discerning seminary, plus a curated list of resources to keep learning and leading.

Listen to rethink familiar passages, recover the voices Scripture highlights, and rediscover a mission built for men and women to carry together. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these stories and join the dialogue.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening & Guest Introduction
• 2:00 Ingrid’s Journey Through Trauma To Theology
• 6:14 Calling, Seminary, And Safe Spaces To Question
• 10:04 From Demystifying Evil To Redeeming Eden
• 13:44 The Big Idea: Women Advance Salvation History
• 18:34 Reframing Eve: From Blame To First Hope
• 25:24 Rahab, Faith, And The Line To Messiah
• 29:04 Bathsheba Revisited: Text, Power, And Trauma
• 38:34 Why Women’s Treatment Predicts A Nation’s Health
• 42:44 “Am I Allowed?” Global Ministry Barriers
• 46:34 Genesis 1–2: Image, Ally, And Sacred Sides
• 54:54 Tamar, Deborah, Hannah: Turning Points

Transcript

Jessica LM Jenkins: 0:24

Have you ever felt like women of the Bible were just an afterthought or not really important to the biblical storyline and God's plan of salvation? Today, our guest on the podcast is Dr. Ingrid Farrow, who just published her book called Redeeming Eden, in which she argues for women as necessary in Scripture and in God's plan of salvation. And I'm so excited to be talking with her. Dr. Faro is a professor of Old Testament at Northern Seminary. She dives deep into hard topics in the Old Testament, whether exploring the mysteries of evil, elevating the voices of women in Scripture, or leading us towards lament and forgiveness. Dr. Farrow blends academic rigor with real world relevance. Thank you so much for coming and joining us. I am honored that you would be here.

Ingrid Faro: 1:21

Thank you. It's so good to be here with you, Jessica. Thanks for inviting me.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 1:26

So you are a professor of Old Testament at Northern. Would you share with us a little bit the journey of how that came to be?

Ingrid Faro: 1:36

Sure. Yeah. I um I started studying theology while I was in a business career in insurance, running my own businesses. And uh, but my life had been um heavily sprinkled, I think that's putting it really lightly, with uh abuse and trauma. And I had come to a point where I did not believe really that God was good. I didn't really believe that he loved me, and I didn't think he was just, and I was really sick of the church because of the experiences, the secondary trauma that I had had there as well. And uh, where as a woman, first of all, I wasn't really important, I wasn't supposed to get an education, and um, I had no role in the church. And and so uh my my first husband who had been abusive, uh he was supported and I was silenced, and uh and we ended up getting a divorce because he uh after he tried to kill me and still refused to admit ever laying a hand on me. Uh so yeah, there were hospital records at that point. So uh but um and so I did remarry and my uh second husband, after within a few years of marriage, became sick and was just continued to be sick for the nine years and was in constant excruciating pain for five of those years. And during the last couple of years of his life, I didn't know it, but I I was at a point where I was just like, Where is God? And yeah, everything was such a mess. And so Oh, absolutely, yeah, and I actually worked myself into a disability because I was I became a workaholic so that I wouldn't have to hear my own thoughts, feel my own feelings, just cover them up and work hard. And as long as I was working, I could ignore the realities taking place inside of me until I couldn't anymore. And yeah, so it was actually during that time that I began to hear my own thoughts, feel my own feelings. And there was a point where I knew God was telling me uh to go get answers for myself from scripture and for me, since I was so hard-headed to get them in the Greek and the Hebrew. So that began, that's what started my journey, starting in some, you know, having no background in theology, jumping in, yeah. You know, I pursued a master's and I still didn't have answers after that, continued on into my PhD. So uh, but that was that was my journey to where I am. My dissertation was on evil from the Hebrew text of Genesis. But it was that time that I began to get answers. And really, um, it's been an incredibly healing process. But part of that journey was also, who am I as a woman and do I matter? And what does scripture have to say about that? So that also became a significant part of the journey, especially with people telling me uh not infrequently, especially during my uh my master's program, you know, what are you doing getting a master of divinity degree? You know, you're not allowed to preach, you know. And it was like I'm just trying to get answers here. So yeah, yeah. So yeah. So that that's a little bit of my background into my story. Okay, yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 5:06

Yeah. Well, that is an incredible story of suffering and resilience. And I love how God was drawing you to himself through all of that. Yeah. And use your um seminary education, both your master's and your PhD, to in many ways heal your heart.

Ingrid Faro: 5:27

Oh, absolutely.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 5:28

And I'm so thankful for I'm so thankful for how you've been able to then write for the rest of us to glean from that wisdom. Before we start talking about your book, which I really want to hear um lots of your thoughts on that. What advice would you give to women specifically in our audience who are trying to decide whether they want to go to seminary and are struggling to figure out the balance between being a wife, a mom, a student? What advice would you give them?

Ingrid Faro: 6:00

My um the best advice is be curious, ask lots of questions, um, be brutally honest with yourself and with God, and find at least at least a couple or a few people that you can trust that are safe, that you can be honest with, that you can explore with. And um what I have come to love about seminary and with the the people in my classes is um actually most of them where I am teaching at Northern, they're not in any full-time ministry. They they are just they they have questions, they want to know more, and they're doing it for their own uh purposes and not only frequently not knowing how God's going to use it or where he's gonna work, but just because I have questions and I want to be engaged with other people who are asking, you know, maybe it's nerding out, or maybe it's just trying to deal with their own suffering in the mud, but but just to find a place for other people where they're free to ask questions with other people who are also asking questions because these are deep in our souls. So, um, so I have I have artists and accountants and uh you know business leaders, military people, I mean, just from all over the world right now. I've got a woman who's uh um in uh military in South Korea, and you know. Okay. And uh so again, you know, just a wide variety of men and women who are just simply want to engage deeply and ask questions that uh where either sometimes the church or the community they're in uh is a may not want to engage as deeply. So it's really makes it um it becomes fun. It's also a lot of work, but it's it's so worth wild.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 8:00

I know I absolutely loved my time in seminary, so I love encouraging others to access that education when they can. So, Ingrid, you said you've written several books. I have read Redeeming Eden. Remind us again what other books you've written.

Ingrid Faro: 8:18

Well, the one right before it is Demystifying Evil, a biblical and personal exploration. And so that uh that discusses both my academic work, but also it includes my story and some other people's stories as well. So it's it's the very practical application of how do you face evil and suffering and pain, and even distinguishes between those three things. And then where does evil come from? And just encouraging people to examine their own stories and not get uh run over by evil, because that was a lesson that I had to learn very much the hard way, that it's neither good nor kind to allow evil to run over you. And so often we either ignore it or try to run from it, don't want to face it, and um and we and facing it becomes the path toward healing. But you can't really do it alone. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 9:15

Yeah. I can tell your personal story really impacted demystifying evil. What was your impetus for writing Redeeming Eden? The subtitle of Redeeming Eden is How Women in the Bible Advance the Story of Salvation. Tell us the story behind this book.

Ingrid Faro: 9:32

Yes. Well, I had been teaching women in the Old Testament. Uh, the first time I taught it, I was so excited to teach it. And um, but I've I discovered very quickly that I had not fully prepared for all the triggers that would be hit. I thought I had, but I really hadn't. And so it was a real challenge because um every story about women that it's some has affected somebody in some way and uh so the next time that I taught it, I I just revamped it and I just said, we're just gonna face the face the the faulty stories that have been told, and we're going to look at this and just we really dug in differently, and it became my favorite class and continued to be my favorite class. But then I thought there was still something more. So I was uh about to go on a 12-hour trip, a 12-hour drive, and a friend prayed for me that the Lord would give me fresh insights during during my drive. And so I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take God up on that. So, and I had I was just finishing another term of teaching this class. And um, and as I was driving, I st I began to see the narrative that it's not just these individual stories, but all of a sudden, this this ongoing story from Genesis 1 and 2, which is opening up about male and female, God created us as humans. Uh, and then from there, even Eve's story, and I saw this connecting point that each major turn in redemption history, there was a woman involved who was not looking for title, was generally overlooked, frequently mistreated, you know, sometimes had done, you know, sometimes had come from difficult backgrounds, but not looking for power or anything, simply was looking at the situation in front of her and either um and and making some kind of change that changed that completely changed or impacted redemption history. And so as so during that drive, it all of those links came together. So by the time I was done, I was like, I have to write about this.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 11:55

Yeah.

Ingrid Faro: 11:57

Yeah. And then it was digging into the Hebrew, digging into the archaeological evidence to make sure, am I missing something? Um, am I getting this right? And uh because so many of the women, you know, Rahab, Bathsheba, you know, Ad and I have been sexualized, vilified, Eve has been vilified. And I discovered there were so many amazing discoveries, things that some of them I had already seen hints of, or some of them I had started, but it was like just doing that deep dive. Um, and so I put all the the footnotes are at the end, but there's 350 footnotes, you know, for uh for anybody who wants to challenge any of it, you know, because I'm aware of that. But it was, but I wanted it to be completely readable, which is why I brought in my friend Joyce Kudalrymple, uh, because she had written devotionals and so forth. And so it's like I need this to be written for uh for every woman and man.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 12:50

Yeah.

Ingrid Faro: 12:50

Because if men read this also, they will uh they're more likely to recognize what God is doing through the women in their lives as well. So it's it's absolutely for everybody. So that was that was an impetus for writing it.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 13:07

I I have absolutely loved reading it. Um, it's been really fun as I've researched a lot of the same women you have chapters on and come to conclusions from the Hebrew about those stories. And then I was reading your book, and I'm like, ah, we came to the same conclusion. And that was so affirming because sometimes my conclusions I don't see a lot of other people out there having, and then you were like echoing everything. I was like, Yes, this is amazing. I love that. Yeah, it was so good.

Ingrid Faro: 13:34

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 13:35

So what is one big truth you really are hoping readers will carry away from redeeming Eden?

Ingrid Faro: 13:44

The Bible is so much about the great reversal, about um reversal of expectations, God working through the unexpected, um, you know, the the it's the secondborn. It's you know, it's the it's the the one you don't expect. And uh and that um and God's love for every human being and and the dignity of each each person. And so when I see God working through women who are so often overlooked, it underscores God's heart for all people, God's heart for redemption and how he truly came as a servant, you know. Jesus who who uh you know, the night before his crucifixion takes the lowest role in any Greco-Roman household and washes the feet of his disciples, and they're all like, What are you doing? You know, they're all he says, I the master am washing your feet and doing this, this is the way you are supposed to, so another. And so women who are so often kicked to the bottom of of the the hierarchies, God is saying, No, no, if you miss what the women are doing, you're going to miss my story. And so that's one of the things is just watching, and and uh, and I I I'll love to give some examples, you know, as we go along. And then the secondary thing that I saw too, and uh it was actually Matthew Lynch in in his book Flood and Fury and um some of his work on violence, and he brings up violence and uh against women, and uh and that also picking up on that that thread that he pointed out as well, and recognizing that the way women are treated is an indication in scripture as to whether that man and that nation or community is going to do well or start collapsing and falling apart. And so when women are are listened to, when they're honored, things go wrong when they're abused, that that's an indication that things are going really badly. And um so that was a secondary but also really important theme that was important to notice as well.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 16:04

And that theme has so many ramifications for us today as we evaluate the church and the country and politics, and we don't have to get into any of that, but there's just it like comes straight from the text of the Bible right to everything going on today. And it's so true that how women are treated is a barometer of the health of a person, a nation, and a country.

Ingrid Faro: 16:31

Yes, it is, it is and a church. Yeah, yeah, it is the telling marker. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 16:40

So in your book, you went through, I'm pulling up the table of contents here, you went through the stories of Eve and Sarah, Tamar, the midwives and Exodus, Rahab, Deborah, Ruth, Hannah, Bathsheba, Jehoshaphat. Um, which of these women was your favorite to write about?

Ingrid Faro: 17:01

Yeah, that is such a hard question because as I worked on each chapter, it was like that one then became my favorite. But um, but I think uh two, well, uh the the one that um I think surprised me the most was working on Eve. Because of course Eve, oh my goodness, I mean, always gets dumped on, you know. Adam dumped on her, you know, when when God questions, he gives both Adam and Eve an opportunity to respond. What is it that you have done? And Adam, it was that woman you gave me. So he's blaming God and he's blaming the woman, he's not taking any personal responsibility. And those are the last words we hear from Adam. We don't hear anything else from him after that. Um, and uh, but the woman says the serpent deceived me and I ate, which is an honest answer. I mean, even Timothy says that she was deceived, so she was right, she was deceived and she ate, and so she does give an honest answer, but those are not her last words. No, they're not. Yeah, and so I haven't seen, uh, and and this was an area we're digging into the Hebrew and um and following some of the rabbinic ways of study, also, where you look at where where do where have I heard these words before? Because Hebrew text, it plays with words, it uses repetition and of words to point in a direction to make an emphasis and to make connections. And so, you know, so first of all, God gives them an opportunity, just like a good parent. What is it you've done? You know, I want to hear it from you. And then, but then before God gives the consequences, he gives hope and a promise. So it does include, you know, the words to the serpent, uh, there will be enity. I will appoint enity between the serpent and the woman. And but it's from the seed of the woman that the one will come who will crush the head of the serpent. And so, but there are two words in there the word appoint enmity. It's usually uh written as set enity, but the word is to appoint or to set enmity. Uh, so we know there's going to be conflict, uh, but there comes that hope. One is coming who's gonna crush the head of the serpent, and that that becomes what some call the proto-evangelium, but we recognize from that point forward looking for the one who is the one that's going to deliver us from this grief, this pain uh experience in in our families in life, because that becomes part of the consequences, that word that eats upon the word for pain and and hardship and grief. Uh, but it it was just so beautiful to see in Genesis 4, after they're they're you know, they're in exile from the garden, and first Eve thinks that her first son, Cain, is gonna be the one, and it uses really weird Hebrew language that I talk about and other, you know, some others have written about. And so Cain really thinks he's the golden child, you know, and so he acts that way. And it's you know, just this horrible story, and just putting ourselves in Eve's place that here she's the one that she's hopeful for, and having just been exp having been in the presence of God in this beautiful, incredible garden. Where everything they could want or desire is provided for. And then for her first son to kill her second son. I mean, that would be enough for so many people to say, God, I'm done with you. You let this happen. You know, and but instead she has hope. And so when she has her next son, Seth, she names him Seth, which means comes from the verb appointed, and said, Yes, God has given me another seed to place Abel who was killed. And so she uses two words from this, these words of hope that God had given. So instead of her saying, God, I'm done with you, you let this let this happen. Instead, she has hope and uses the very words from this promise that now, Seth, maybe this is the appointed one who uh who will replace the seed. And so um, and and then we we see Seth's son. Uh, the very next verse is that Seth has a son, Enosh, and then people begin to call upon the name of the Lord. And then that language uh from this appointed one is language that becomes synonymous with worship and salvation in both the old and the new testament. And so we I trace that through. And so so Eve turned from yes, she she sinned, she was deceived, she broke covenant with God, but she was also the first person to have faith in God's redemption. And yeah, blew my mind because I know, yeah, I pretty much only heard her vilified, and uh, and instead she became uh an emblem of hope and faith. And so that I loved. I loved seeing that right at the very beginning. And uh so we tra I trace that too. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 22:19

I loved how you you talked about that in your book. Um, I think I've written that Eve was the first theologian outside of the garden. Yes, because so often, especially from some of the evangelical circles I've come out of, um, men are the theologians, they are the pastors, they are the thinkers, they are the professors, they are the writers. But scripture starts with a female theologian clinging to God's promises when all of the trouble and trauma and hardship of life is trying to rip her away. And she's like, No, I am gonna hold on to God and I'm going to, you know, the text doesn't say it, but we can imagine teach Seth and be this for my son and grandsons. And that's such a beautiful way to start our understanding of scripture.

Ingrid Faro: 23:09

Yes, yeah. And you know, and I I think of her, and then you know, jump away in the New Testament, Martha, who then also her brother dies. Lord, if you had been there, he wouldn't have died. And then but she becomes the one to declare that Jesus is the Messiah when when Jesus says, I am, I am the resurrection, and she believes, you know. So we see these, you know, and of course, Mary Magdalene. So, you know, I'm full I focus in this book mostly on Testament stories, but I'm always pointing to the ones that that are echoing from these Old Testament stories, these women in the Old Testament who were faithful. So and then, you know, of course, Rahab, one of the other just amazing stories because she completely overturns the expectations of go in and kill all the Canaanites, because the first one that's encountered is a Canaanite woman who has more than spies. Right, she's she's amazing. Her declaration of faith in in Yahweh, she calls out, she she calls the name of Yahweh, which normally foreigners wouldn't do, people outside of God. But she says, Your God Yahweh is the God of heaven and earth who made the heaven. He's above all other gods. And she says, Everyone else in Canaan, there all their hearts are melting in fear. She says that twice, their hearts are melting in fear because of what they have heard your God Yahweh do. And she, of course, becomes a Yahweh follower, becomes uh her family is saved. Uh, whereas a good Judah, Aiken, a few chapters left his family because he disobeys God, but this case woman and her family are saved, and then her son is Boaz, who, of course, marries Ruth and and leads right into the line of the Messiah. So it's like You love that. Love it. Yeah. She overturns of the conquest. Umrative. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 25:14

Yeah. And continually showcasing women's insights into what God is doing. Yeah. That in cultures where they weren't necessarily expected, either back then or today, that women are having these insights you showed through the book all throughout and using their voices to point to what God is doing. It's just absolutely beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Were there any of these women in your book that were a particular challenge for you to be working through? Was there any that was just, it was a real wrestle to get through that story?

Ingrid Faro: 25:55

The toughest one was Bathsheba. Oh. Um yeah, because of of course, you know, everybody pretty much pictures her according to the Renaissance paintings, you know, her in a bathtub, this big luxurious bathtub naked on the roof, you know, just looking over at David. And it's completely missing the Hebrew. It's not at all what the text says. Uh, and it's also missing all the archaeological evidence, which, you know, there were no big bathtubs put on roofs. People were hauling hot water up, you know. Right. And uh not only that, but the text actually says David was on a roof, but it nowhere says that she is on a roof. And, you know, in this archaeology, now it has, you know, they they know basically what, you know, even in the city of David, and you know, even more recent archaeology, which I was there just a year and a half ago looking at um some of the ancient archaeology of you know, the time of David and so forth. And uh, so yeah, there were courtrooms, usually people were washing in a stone little basin, little sinks, and uh usually done in private courtyards and so forth. She had there was no way that she would have could have or should have known that David was home. He was supposed to out with everybody else. She was and um and yeah, I mean, there's so much in the language, and then um that just builds up to the whole story um and uh and points overwhelmingly to David's aggression. He was pulling out, pulling off some conquest, not being at war, he chose a different conquest that was her. And then, of course, the question of rape, which you know I'd always wrestled with when I had taught the course because I didn't know if that was a suitable term or not. So I had to do a deep dive into that. And uh the Hebrew doesn't have a specific term for rape, it uses language in order to indicate whether or not this was um a consensual sexual relationship or not, and whether it was a relationship with a spouse or not. And so I did the deep dive into that, you know, checking other scholars as well and looking at all the different uses of the terminology in comparison with others, and uh between that and the power language, David sending messengers plural to take her and the language of see and take that predominates in scenes where something has gone really badly wrong against God and God's principles. And so just looking at the whole thing, you know, I do come to the conclusion very clearly that it was rape, but I really have to wrestle with that, and um because it was like I I I do not want to misname it if that is not accurate, but there's just no getting around it by the time the study was done. And uh and then of course, there's so much, so much more in her story, looking at her story also through the lens of trauma um and healing from trauma, because of course we've got the passage in 2 Samuel 11 and 12, and then she comes back beginning first Kings, where she has no voice in 1 Samuel 11 and 12, just a message that she sends to the king and pregnant. But then, right, but then also Nathan the prophet, who who comes to her, comes alongside and both takes her, you know, um calls her a little you lamb, you know, so it indicates probably very young, and uh and and just God's perspective of her as a little baby lamb and that was riot. Innocent, yes, completely innocent. She is never vilified anywhere in scripture, only David. It's called the evil that he had done to her and then killing her husband. And David is the one completely called out, and Nathan the prophet has the nerve to do that, to call him out, because we recognize there were other kings later who would kill the prophets who uh condemned them. Right. So he stood up for Bathsheba, and then and then these many years later, uh, we we see the recovery of Bathsheba. But now she has gotten a voice, she has fled from her trauma, and because trauma takes away the voice of the victim. So just really uh beautiful studies there, but uh, but then there was there even more in in the uh passage in just uh 2 Samuel 11:4, that's just this really compact um verse. Uh and and there's and the strange language I'll just kind of hit to that indicates that while she was being defiled, she was consecrating herself during the very defilement. And that was also a deep vibe and interacting with a lot of scholarly work and so forth, and that it just elevated her faith and trust in God in the midst of her trauma, became very clear that I would have never had the opportunity to really dig out if I hadn't just gone deeply into into the the Hebrew and the text and everything and interacted with other scholars as well. So so yeah, Bathsheba first, it was so you know when I was writing it and I was working with Joyce, and I said, I this has to be two chapters. There's no way I can compact. And she okay, so she helped me, you know, real quick. Yeah, she helped you narrow it down. She helped me focus, you know, her background both on Divana's an attorney. It's like, okay, we gotta get to the point here, you know. That help is invaluable. Yeah. So lots of other notes, but that's for some that's for another time. But uh yeah. Yes, but that was a tough, tough chapter.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 31:56

It yeah, I've been this week, I've just recorded two episodes on Bathsheba for the podcast. So I've been reading, like I read your chapter as I was doing all the other research, and I was like, oh yeah, I read that article she's referencing, and I know exactly who she's talking about here. And oh, that our author was yeah. We're not gonna talk about George Nichols. Yeah, we're just gonna move on. Well, I can't wait to listen to those podcasts too. So I'll be tuning in. Thanks. Oh, thank you. But yeah, Bathsheba, I feel like I can see, especially with your trauma in your background, that having a lot of personal things, I imagine, would have been drummed up in the middle of that study. Where is the victim going to be believed? And we see in our culture that from the medieval times with those paintings, I have women in my DMs on social media talking about how they're arguing with their pastor that no, Bathsheba was raped. And the pastor's like, no, I just really think she tried to seduce David. Like, I'm sure she did. And that's the pastor with an M Div who and just the propensity to blame women and not believe them and not see the harm done, even when communicated by God and his prophets. Yes, that David is the one who did it, and she is a you lamb. And God likened the rape of Bathsheba to murder. Right. This is not seduction. Yes. Yes. And you know, I feel like women need to hear that. And I so appreciated the all of the scholarly work and depth that you put into that chapter because it was so needed for you to step through each part. And you managed to, you managed your goal of getting it in one chapter where you got it in there and to the point, and it's an exceptionally powerful chapter. So, those listening, make sure you read the Bathsheba chapter in Redeeming Eden. Dr. Faro did a fantastic job on that. I mean, the whole book is fantastic, but that's it overlaps with some of my study recently. So I can verify it is a fantastic chapter there. Awesome. So, General, um, as you teach women of the Bible, you mentioned earlier that your first year teaching the women of the Bible class, you ran into a lot of triggers and traumas in your students. What are some of those things that you now know to prepare for, but that keep cropping up year after year?

Ingrid Faro: 34:28

It a lot of it is just simply rooted in women who have been told by their churches all the things they can't do because they're a woman. And um, and and so that in itself, always questioning, am I allowed to do this? And I remember even I taught for a year in um biblical Hebrew and other courses in Sweden, and I thought, oh, surely in Sweden I'm not going to come across the issues of you know of the role of women in the church and so forth. But within my first two weeks, every woman in my class, and I had women from six different European countries, and every one of them came in and asked me, is is it okay for me to preach? Is it okay for me to teach the Bible? And no, not here too. You know, and of course, even in China, where there's so many women who've because you know, so many of the men are in prison and so forth, so women who've but even there, some of them are being told, no, you're not allowed to do these, you know, to have the role, you're not allowed to be a pastor and so forth. So, you know, so everywhere I go, it's it's that that question of am I allowed? And I know even recently I I went um to uh speak at a friend's church, and you know, and as I came in, she they she and another the director of women's ministries, they they needed to prep me, you know, well, don't say this, this will be offensive to the men, and don't say this, this will be offensive to the pastor. And and it was like, you know, I'm so thankful where I teach now because my colleagues were all supporting one another. It's what does the word of God say? And um, and I remember, yeah, it's it's that so that that burden that we so often carry, just thinking I I'm probably just not enough. Um, because there's something lacking in me. Uh, whereas um scripture, when we really dig into it, uh it truly eliminates that. We look at the life of Jesus and his treatment of women, and even of course, reframing Paul's treatment of women and coming to realize that Paul was not a hypocrite. He did not honor women as deacons and apostles and co-workers, and then say, keep quiet in the church, you know, that that's missing some of the rest of the passage, you know. It's yeah, not finishing the passage, cherry-picking the very thing that those who do it's supposed to do. So uh, but yeah, so it's it's been so um encouraging and inspiring. And then just, you know, when I do have the classes with women, yeah, every every woman that we that we bring up, yeah, they um it seems like there's someone where their story was used against them. And um and and they were yeah, was used to just make them question if they were enough and if they were allowed to really serve God.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 37:32

Yeah.

Ingrid Faro: 37:33

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 37:34

Yeah. So many women wrestle with that question. I know I have, I have women in my DMs wrestling with that question. I have friends wrestling with that question. It's it's so prevalent. Um, what do you wish you could tell the church to correct some of the misunderstandings about women? I know that's a huge question, but just boil it down. What is one or two misconceptions about women in scripture that you wish you could just correct once and for all?

Ingrid Faro: 38:05

Yeah. Well, and that's where even my work in Genesis one and two have become so very helpful because um I like to start where the Bible starts. It starts in Genesis one and two. What is God's intention? What's God's mission in creating us as humanity? So not let's not focus on who we became as broken humans that uh that rebelled against God, but what was God's intention in the beginning? And um and so uh so there's a lot more that's been written in in recent, you know, even 20 years about image of God and the importance of male and female, he created them, all to rule so that they may rule, uh which is a really good Hebrew translation in Genesis 126. Uh he made them. Uh, and so, and then also just the language of ruling in you know in those passages as male and female. So that's a good starting. Yes, every human being is created with dignity that God himself of God himself being our royal children of God. And then uh the two main words used in chapter two, where chapter two goes into more detail of what does it mean to be male and female and how are we to relate? And so often people lose themselves in trying to make it a biology lesson or something, which is completely missing point, rather than psychological anthropology. God is giving us imagery to help us understand, visualize spiritual realities in the physical realm. And so a lot's come out about Azer, you know, the the help and recognizing the word help uh is not a great translation, um, especially the English dictionary uh Miriam Webster, an unskilled laborer. You know, it's like uh and then when you recognize that this word that occurs 21 times in the Hebrew Bible, 16 of those times it's referring to Yahweh Elohim, you know, sort of the loving God, who is, you know, he's not an unskilled laborer, he's not do, you know, picking up our dirty laundry and not at all. Not at all. Yeah. And then the other three times that it's used, it's it's in a military context. And so And it's um so even though the word help is used there, nobody thinks of God or the the military as being unskilled laborers or just you know some minor assistance. And so, but because because they're powerful allies, you know, they're right, and we God calls us to partner with us as children. He wants us to learn from him, but also recognizing that that word help when when it's referring to woman, we've got to read it in the context of the Hebrew Bible and how is this how is it intended? And then it moves right from there into the other word where very little has been done on it, and that's the word that's usually translated side. And so this is also so transformative. Uh, and and it uses a verb to build, which also, you know, some scholars have noted uh that build it is an architectural term. Uh, whereas in my seminary class, uh, when I was one or two women in a class of usually, you know, 30 men, and uh our Hebrew Bible teacher made fun of it. Oh, the woman was built, ha ha ha. You know, the guys are laughing and the woman are, dear Lord, give me strength. Right. Right. This is me, but thank you very much. But uh I don't think that's what God had in mind. Thank you so much. Right. So yeah, those friends, so again, little triggers all the way through, you know, the micro microtions.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 41:43

Uh but and the belittling of women as just part of the culture.

Ingrid Faro: 41:48

Yes, to simply objectifying, you know, just yeah, just accoutrements for the men, you know, just playthings or something, and uh yeah, and totally disposable and dispensable and significant. And uh and then here you have this word powerful ally, strong partner, and then this word selah, which is used 40 times in the Hebrew Bible, and um 36 of the times, it is a very it's it's translated generally as side and very specifically side, sides of the tabernacle, sides of the temple, sides of the altar of incense, sides of the Ark of the Covenant, sides of the altar of burnt offering, these are sacred spaces where God makes his presence known. And so even the Ezra Kenegdo, so um uh quote, helper alongside, and then it's using language of sides, what sides of sacred space that without these sides, the the the structures could not stand. And so if a side is missing, it's going to collapse. God's presence is going, is not going to be made known. And for me, that gives us that picture of the church, which then comes back in the New Testament as living stones, you know, because only the ancient buildings were made of stones, of course, the tabernacle, you know, but yeah, still whether it's stone, wood, these are sides alongside holding up the presence of God. And if uh one side is missing, the presence of God will not be made known. The the the mercy seat will not stand on the the on the Ark of the Covenant. You know, the um I checked with my friend John Munson, who's who's one of the international experts on temple language about this word sale, but when it comes to temple, he said, yeah, no, that's that's the term for the structural walls where the also the the um treasures were kept, and it's essential, selah are essential for the temple to stand, you know, without it won't stand. And so when you think of the role of man and woman as strong allies alongside who are holding up sacred space where God wants his presence known to the world, it gives us it's part of our mission together as male and female, and uh to be standing together. And uh so that and we're supposed to interpret all the rest of scripture through Genesis 1 and 2, God's plan. And we're always it's all we're always trying to get back to that place where the new heavens and the new earth will, of course, yeah, everything will be returned, but God's plan, his plan never changed to work through and women, and he's trying to point it out all the way through scripture, old and new testament, the importance of listening, listen to the woman. When Judah listens to Tamar, his life is she challenges 100%, puts her life at risk to do it. She's actually following um Canaanite law of love of law, which was different than Israel that Israelite later became. And so, I mean, there's so many things where we just, you know, people tried to find reasons to obliterate the women, whereas God has actually placed them front and center at these major junctions.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 45:08

Yeah. Yeah. And to think of men and women working together as the upholders of sacred space rather than the man holding it and the woman just brings him sandwiches and spoon feeds him to help him out. She's Sandy carrying the burden alongside as an equal partner, it completely changes and transforms the way you view women. Yes, absolutely, yeah. And I think I think those chapters in your book are so important to redraw our understanding of that foundation of humanity that God builds the rest of scripture on.

Ingrid Faro: 45:55

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 46:00

What other notes or interesting themes from Redeeming Eden would you like to talk about? What other things have we not gotten to that you're like, ooh, I would really like to mention this?

Ingrid Faro: 46:11

Yeah, and of course, all of them I just love. And uh, of course, the Exodus story. I I remember when I was talking to a uh friend of mine, he was he was my mentor. He had been um uh and he had been teaching, he was retired at that point, he had been teaching the Hebrew Bible for 40 years. And when I told him the thesis of my book, that uh women were strategically placed in scripture to initiate or advance key movements in redemption history. And uh, and one is first is well, what about the Exodus? What about Moses? And so then I got to tell him, Well, look first, the the women, they were producing children, and then look at Shafrain Pua and look at the three women who were unnamed and to save a little yet unnamed little slave baby boy. And so we have a slave mother, a slave daughter that are saving a little slave baby boy. What's this what's the value of a slave baby anyway? Right and disposable, and the pharaoh who thought the men were important, but women insignificant. Let the women live, they're no threat to me. It was the women because it was these three women, these three two two uh slave women and his own daughter who saved this little slave boy.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 47:30

I love it.

Ingrid Faro: 47:30

If they hadn't saved it, there would be, you know, and Sheffrapoo, obviously, their stories had circulated around because everybody knew their story. So I'm sure they gave hope to the rest of the women there. Just like, yes, let us be and I love how Carmen Imes uh calls it freedom fighters, you know. Yes, nonviolent freedom fighters, and uh by simply refusing to go along with what the the chief power of the land, the pharaoh, had said, and so uh so yeah, so it was really fun, and then just pointing out at each of so many of these key junctures. So Exodus, and you get to Joshua, you've got Ahab, you get to Judges, you've got Deb beginning with, you know, early on, you've got Deborah, and then you've got Samuel, which we've got Hannah, and then you've got Kings, we've got Bathsheba, and then all these little stories peppered throughout, but these major movements where these women are coming in and uh and Tamar just challenging, putting her life at risk to challenge Judah, and we see the transformation of Judah because he listens to her. If he hadn't listened to her, yeah, she is more righteous than I, he would have never become the line of the tribe of Judah. He would not have stepped into Saint Benjamin. He had left his whole family, he was living as a Canaanite, he had abandoned his family, and because of Tamar's bold actions, he returns home, and uh and then this very son becomes part of the line of the Messiah's wall. And so just story after story, and then like of course, the the last one that I tell about that pretty much nobody's ever heard of Jehoshaphat. You know, it's buried in there, and she never she only occurs this one time, but nevertheless, she is uh she is the sister of this of one of the evil kings of Judah. You know, and there's been you know, Jehoshaphat has you know his son Jehoram, who becomes an evil king, kills off all of his brothers. This is the line of David. He's killed off all his brothers, and then you know, these um raiders come in and kill off all of those sons, but there's one that lives, and Ahaziah lives, and uh, but he is evil also. And um, he he's only king for a year. He has some children, but he's only 22 years old. And yeah, his mother, Athaliah, who is the daughter of Ahab, and we don't know for sure if she's also the daughter of Jezebel, but she's a Baal worshiper, and so she, you know, this is her chance to now become the queen of Judah. So she orders to have you know all the these children killed. And but Jehoshaphat goes, you know, has the nerve in the midst of this killing thing to go into the to the palace and steal this little one-year-old baby, her her neck, and tie him in the temple because her husband uh um uh oh suddenly I his let little name just totally escaped me. But it was Jehoida. Yeah, Jehoiada. Yes, they agreed to hide them for six years. They're hiding this baby and his nursemaid for six years, putting their lives at risk, and uh and and uh so again, the line of David was just a sword slash away from annihilation, but one person who risked her life again to save a baby. So yeah, so I just love these so many stories. And when I submitted the book proposal to uh Zonderman, I had 30 chapters, so I cut it back down to 12 plus an intro level. So there's there's a lot more stories, so many more, you know, but just to start seeing them and asking questions, so it's kind of like where I started come in and ask questions when you say yes, this doesn't seem right, and and it's you know, my my trust in God's love for all humanity, but for women, me, you know, it's like a Hagar, her words, you she's the first one to name God. You are the God who sees me. That's and that's I it's my my hope for every person, certainly for every woman, but for the men as well. You are the God who sees me. So no matter how or horrible or oppressive or depressing uh or anxious our circumstances are, to just have a a little bit of hope and say, I'm I'm gonna hope that you're the God who sees me. It was a start there. And that's where I start then I hope that you're the God who sees me, but legging and not giving up. Yes. Because I've come to experience the God who sees me with detailed work. I see that in the lives of these women. So and there's some where that it doesn't end well. But when it doesn't end well for the women, it shows it me it means that the everything has collapsed around them. You know, the men have failed, the civil the the community is collapsing, you know, so the kingdom is collapsing. So it's uh so it it the women are a barometer, as you said at the beginning as well. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 52:49

And they are so valued by God that He has placed them and highlighted them throughout Scripture, showcasing their wisdom and their voices and their participation in His plan. Yes. Yeah, it's powerful. So, Ingrid, as we close today, um, I like to ask for book recommendations for those who are listening who want to learn more about women of the Bible, historical context of the Bible. What are some of your top book recommendations? Obviously, they need to read Redeeming Eden and Demystifying Evil, which you wrote, but what other recommendations do you have for us?

Ingrid Faro: 53:30

Yeah, it's it's um, yeah, and and more and more things are coming out, of course, all the time. My colleague Nijay Gupta, who wrote Tell Her Story, is uh is really wonderful. Um uh and I also I actually love um um Catherine McDowell, The Image of God, the Garden of Eden. It's it's a bit of a nerve book, but it it gives it really gives the such an in-depth understanding of what does it mean to be created in the image of God, and that in itself is life transformative when we recognize how God values every human being as he values himself because we bear his image. And so I love that as well. Um there are uh there are some books. Well, right now I'm actually just thinking of Book Safe Church by Andrew Bauman. I just happen to have it here. The guard against sexism and abuse in Christian communities. Yeah, just and uh trauma specialist. So that's that's really good, also. Um uh Nancy Dawson is just I think it's released now, but she is coming out with a book on every woman in the Bible. So it's um she had done a book on every genealogy in the Bible. So her background is taxonomy as a scientist, and then she went into studies. So she loves and she's just delightful. So her book on every woman in the Bible is uh just you know one to really keep an eye out for. Um Seth Allison Bars, uh she's written a couple of books, and they're really, really powerful from the church history perspective. And and Amy Peeler, um, you know, the uh The Gender of God, you know, she where she wrestles with theology as well. Um uh um uh Cynthia Westfall, her book on Paul and Gender. Uh that's a if you want a deep theological dive into what how do you translate, for example, her one of her last chapters, First Timothy two passages. And uh she she is such an excellent exegete that even, and I'll just use a broad term, the hyper complimentarians, when they were critiquing the book, could not uh be negative about it, even though they said, well, we don't agree, but they they weren't able to provide any arguments against her. I love that period.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 55:57

We just don't agree, but we can't tell you why.

Ingrid Faro: 56:00

Yeah. So hers is a bit of a classic uh on that as well. And I should think of so many more right now, but uh but those are just you know some of the immediate ones that I've that I've been re-engaging with as well, and so many great articles and you know written by somebody at but so many to start. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 56:21

Well, thank you, Ingrid Farrow. We are so thankful for you to take the time to come tell us about God's love for women throughout the Old Testament. I do recommend to everyone listening, definitely read Redeeming Eden or um each chapter has uh either personal or like group discussion questions. So if you want to do it um in a ladies' Bible study or not a ladies' Bible study, a mixed group study, this book will serve you in a multiple multitude of ways. I definitely recommend Redeeming Eden for both personal and group reading use. It will change the way you view women in the Bible. Thank you again, Dr. Faro. It was a pleasure to have you with us.